From Therapist to Rising Coach w/ Dr Hayley Kelly – She Leads She Thrives Podcast Ep 58

Shannon Dunn  01:16

Great big hello, everybody. I am delighted to be back with another one of our guest episodes. If you are new to She Leads She Thrives, I’ll just introduce myself. I’m Shannon Dunn. I’m a longtime business and self leadership coach and delighted to be the host here and to have such incredible women, we’ve had the occasional male guests. But we’re really only focused on having women to come on to the show for  She Leads She Thrives. 

Shannon Dunn  01:42

And today is no exception. So I’ve got Dr. Hayley Kelly with me. Now Hayley and I only connected on Instagram only in the recent  few months. And I think Hayley it was an episode not of your podcast, which I’m excited to talk to you about, as one of many things on my list today. But I think it was you were a guest on somebody else’s podcast perhaps. And I saw that being shared, someone I follower, I can’t remember who it is now, but I was like who is this? And she’s Australian as well. Very cool. Bonus thing. And then I reached out to you and we kind of chatted about the content and what you’ve been focusing on. 

Shannon Dunn  02:19

So I’m really delighted to have you here today. I’m going to share your bio in a minute. But we’ve got lots of things to talk about and your shift from therapist to coach and bringing those things together. And yeah, so many things to talk about. So welcome. Okay, so let me show your bio everyone knows about the phenomenal woman you are. 

Shannon Dunn  02:41

So Dr Hayley Kelly, PhD is the CEO and founder of Therapist Rising – I love that name too by the way – a groundbreaking company and global movement that aims to disrupt and innovate the mental health care system. The background in clinical psychology and extensive experience in various roles within academia, healthcare and private practice. She has recognized the flaws in the traditional approach to mental health and sought to create a new path for therapists to make a meaningful impact. Dr. Kelly’s journey has led her to develop a successful coaching business and achieve financial stability through revenue diversification, which she now teaches to other therapists – that excited me to to see that. Driven by her own experience as a mother and a neurodivergent individual – austistic ADHD, Dr. Kelly is dedicated to being a role model for her children and redefining sustainability and contribution. Through Therapist Rising she supports therapists at different stages of their entrepreneurial development, providing them with the necessary skills and strategies to build future proofed businesses by creating launching and scaling signature programs. Under her leadership Therapist Rising is creating a transformative community of empowered therapists who are rewriting the rules and making a lasting impact in the mental health landscape. What a mission.

Dr Hayley Kelly  03:57

I know, as you’re reading that, I was like, holy moly, that’s me.

Shannon Dunn  04:00

It is cool to have your bio read out and to be able to be in the space to listen to it, isn’t it and go wow, look at me. Look at me go.

Dr Hayley Kelly  04:09

You go lady. That’s amazing.

Shannon Dunn  04:13

Yeah, it is. And I think it’s such a beautiful opportunity to actually recognize what we’ve achieved. And you know, what we’re doing and the mission behind that, the vision that we have. Because often I think in business, we don’t pause to do those things often enough, right? So I’ve got so many things to talk about today. I’ve got lots on my list, and I will see where the conversation goes. But I’d love to talk to you about your shift from therapy to coaching therapists because it’s not something that I’ve seen a lot of. Yes, I know what is happening out there. But coaching and therapy, which is another question we’ll get to,  the difference between those,  is so important to understand that. But I’d just love to know a little bit about your background, your journey like how you came to that space of shifting from yourself in delivering therapeutic services to coaching and coaching therapists.

Dr Hayley Kelly  05:02

Let’s go there, it’s a good place to start. So the shift came following, I think the realization of just how incredibly burnt out I was. There was a point in my life where I was so distressed, so burnt out,  and I have this memory that I speak up quite often because it’s literally burnt into my memory banks. And it feels so vivid when I speak about it. But I have this visceral memory of sitting on my kitchen floor before a clinic one day, like, dry retching into a bucket. And my son, who was very young, at that point, sort of standing over me with his hand on my shoulder saying, Mommy, are you okay? 

Dr Hayley Kelly  05:50

And, like even I’ve told that story, it must be 1000s of times now. And I still feel the emotion come up when I speak about it, because it was such a distressing point in my life. And the reason why I was so burnt out is because unlike the story and narrative that I was telling myself, which was, I’m broken, I’m a terrible therapist, no other therapist struggles the way that I struggle, like, there’s something wrong with me, I’m just not cut out for this and feeling very much like a square peg in a round hole. With hindsight, I can now see that the distress and the burnout, and the disillusionment was not because I was broken, but the system was broken. 

Dr Hayley Kelly  06:34

And that realization that I had devoted so many years of my life to one of my most important values, which is service and impact helping others. But the method of doing that, and the system that I was operating under was harming me. And not just me, but my friends, my colleagues, my peers, were all saying the same thing. But there was no alternative. And there’s this really pervasive mentality, narrative within the profession, that if you question the status quo, if you dare speak against the system, or the difficulties that you’re having in the system, or how much it’s harming you, then you’ll get reported to the Board, basically. 

Dr Hayley Kelly  07:24

So everyone lives in this constant state of fear. We’re policed internally by each other. And the system is just fundamentally flawed. And so at that point in time, that was like the, you know, when you have like those moments, and there’s usually a few of them along your journey before you make like a substantial change, but that’s definitely one of the ones where I go, that was, that was one of those moments that was the catalyst for the change. And early in my career, I knew that, like I had Inklings and rumblings that the traditional one to one format of care that we had been indoctrinated into, didn’t feel that great to me in terms of like sustainability, and the reliance on people showing up in order to get paid. It didn’t feel that great. It didn’t feel great at all. So it had like some early warning signs really, really early in my career. 

Dr Hayley Kelly  08:19

And so at that point, I tried to diversify what I was doing then, and I tried to launch a group course. And it flopped, because I had no idea what I was doing. I just winged it, hope for the best. And it went terribly, obviously. And so I sort of just like step back in my shell. Again, the story’s about like, Oh, it must be a me thing. That’s why I failed. Not because I had terrible marketing or no audience or anything, crappy offer. No, none of those things that were because I was such a shit human being.

Shannon Dunn  08:52

Fascianting how we go to that place so often  – anyway, that’s kind of almost like another conversation. 

Dr Hayley Kelly  08:59

Absolutely. So I had tried. But then at that sort of breaking point, was the point where I said, I’m like, I need to make a drastic change here, otherwise, like, I’m not going to survive this emotionally, physically, mentally, I will not be able to repair myself. And so I made the change, and started to step out into the self development world, and I’ve always been very much in the self development world, it’s always been of great interest to me, I’m really interested in health, have always been interested in high performance. I’m an elite athlete, I played for Australia. 

Dr Hayley Kelly  09:34

So coaching and things like that have always felt interesting to me. And I’ve sort of dabbled on the fringe. But at that point, I was like, no, no, I’m gonna, like, start doing this. And so I joined masterminds and started really thinking about like, what the hell am I going to do if I’m not a therapist? Like the only thing that I can do is open an Airbnb or stack shelves. Which all felt glorious let me tell you, in comparison, they were like, Oh my gosh, that would feel that amazing to pack shelves at Coles. But the consistent message that I was getting when I was surrounded by these incredible women, like these powerhouse entrepreneurial women who were saying things to me, like you cannot walk away from your skills, your knowledge, your years, and years of education. You can’t just walk away from that, find a way to use what you’ve got, find a way to repackage it, sell it differently, do something differently, but don’t just completely step away. It would be a travesty. And I was like, Yeah, right. What do you you know? At that point, I was just angry.

Shannon Dunn  10:46

I’m thinking I’m so grateful for all the people that you were working with and will work with in the future that that was the strong messaging. And at some point, you clearly listened to it.

Dr Hayley Kelly  10:56

And when I look back, at that advice, I’m like, Well, that is some of the most sage advice that you can give someone at that point where all they want to do fight. So our nervous system is so activated that we’re in fight/flight. And at that point, I was just like, I’m in flight, I need to get out of here. There’s nothing else I can do. I’ve got tunnel vision, because like I just want to be out of it. I just want the pain to stop. And so I couldn’t see the reality that it was achievable for me to transfer my skills into something else. But what I slowly started to see was not only were my skills highly transferable, but highly in demand, and highly monetizable in the broader market. Yeah, that was like, what? Oh, my God,

Shannon Dunn  11:49

Where’s this been hiding?

Dr Hayley Kelly  11:52

All right, like I’ve been at uni for 12 years and little old me is like no one would pay for my skills outside of the therapy room – I was completely wrong. So I started to dabble in coaching and ended up being able to build quite a successful coaching business at that point, when I was purely coaching entrepreneurial women specifically around things like visibility blocks, and anything that was really performance related in terms of getting them to where they wanted to be, to their goals, in their entrepreneurial pursuits. And I got so successful that my friends, my therapist friends would like DM me and be like, how are you doing this?

Shannon Dunn  12:33

I bet they were asking. That weird unicorn that they’d heard could be possible, but wait a second, we know someone who’s doing this now.

Dr Hayley Kelly  12:43

Exactly. And so I think the curiosity became quite apparent for me. And at that point, I got so sick of people asking me, Im like, I’m just gonna create a Facebook group where we can all hang out. And within like a week, we had over 1000 members. Which I think just is a testament to how much need there is for therapists to be having conversations around career evolution, career sustainability, leveraging their skill sets in different ways, so that they can impact more people, while also very much tending to their own wellbeing and desires and the lifestyle that they want to be living. And so that’s how Therapist Rising was born. That was a really long story to get there.

Shannon Dunn  13:28

I don’t apologize, no apologies here at all.  I asked, I wanted to hear the story, because I’d pieced little bits together from what I’ve heard you sharing and what I’ve read, but it’s good to hear it all in one. And I think that the power of our story and how we got to what we’re doing is so valuable, and is often such a point of inspiration for others. And listening to you. I’m thinking about the many clients that I have had over the years that are in a therapeutic kind of space counselors, therapists of different kinds, and the struggles that they’ve had in trying to be in private practice or juggle a private practice and working in the system. And I’ve heard all these things. 

Shannon Dunn  13:28

And I also think about my own experience having qualifications in counseling and art therapy, but knowing that I was actually going to be a coach, and never practice 100% in either of those professions, because I’d seen enough having come from a health profession previously, I’d seen enough to know that no, I want to use those skills in a different space. I get it from many different angles there. And I’m sure anyone who’s listening, if you’re not in a therapeutic service environment right now, you’ll know someone who is. Make sure they’re listening. Share the link so they can listen and get them to follow, you know, Hayley and what she’s doing.

Shannon Dunn  14:54

 So I think this is a perfect time now to go to the next key question, which is what is the difference between therapy and coaching? Because it’s yes, it can be such a muddy space. And I know that in some of the conversations I’ve had over the years in defining these things, and also adding the word “consulting” in and “mentoring”, because they kind of all get interchanged. And yet, I find it interesting that therapy kind of gets put with those other three words as well, because it’s so different. So I’d love your take on it.

Dr Hayley Kelly  15:25

Yeah, and just like, because words have so much power, right? The nuance of what you just said, is so important. And and you said, it can be so muddy? Yes. And I’m going to change that to is so muddy, there’s no “can be” about it. It’s really muddy. And I think this is why it’s one of the most common questions that I get both from people within the field. So other therapists are like, how do I distinguish between what I’m doing as a therapist clinically, versus what I would be doing as a coach? Like, where’s the line in the sand, but also from people in the coaching community who are like, How can I ethically coach and feel confident that I’m not blurring the boundaries, that I’m not pushing into a space that I don’t have the skill set, or the inclination to be playing in. 

Dr Hayley Kelly  16:13

And first and foremost, the line doesn’t exist, and it’s super muddy, which is really crap, because we’re human beings. And we really love certainty, and things to be black and white, like, it’s just this way. But the reality of it is, particularly with this conversation, it is more shades of gray than it ever will be black and white. And I think if we can get really comfortable with that, that there is not one single definition or way to distinguish between them, then it allows us to sort of tune into even what I know and some of the things that I can hold about the differences, then I feel more equipped to make a call when I do feel like I’m approaching that line. So particularly for coaches, who feel like Oh, I’m moving into waters that feel a little bit scary, making me feel a little bit uneasy. Being able to assess that, and then using their judgment to go, I don’t feel comfortable where this is going and making a decision from that point. So hopefully this conversation equips people with that. 

Dr Hayley Kelly  17:18

But here are some of the things that I consider some of the key differences. So when you sort of think about, like any clinical work, so whether it’s therapy, or counseling, and coaching, one of the easiest ways to distinguish between them is are we dealing with a diagnosable mental health condition? And if we are, it is not coaching. It belongs in the realm of therapy. And one of the things that’s becoming really scarily apparent, is the amount of clinically diagnoseable, I guess what we would call disorders, but yes, such a yucky word. But things like anxiety and depression, trauma, that are being dealt with in the coaching space.

Shannon Dunn  18:10

So many, and I’ve talked about this, from my own views and with other guests a number of times now. And I’ve seen, it feels like such a rise in the trends to go to those spaces since the advent of Covid. Yeah, when the things shifted in the world, and there was a recognition of how much trauma people had experienced, not just through that, but their whole life potentially and other things. So yeah, loved it. Let’s go there.

Dr Hayley Kelly  18:40

Yeah, and it does, it does tend to upset particularly the coaches in the world that therapists will be like, damn, right, that like leave that to the realm of therapy, but like, that’s what our training equips us to deal with. Not always 100% effectively, but we are much more equipped than the average person and certainly the average coach to be working and helping and supporting people to heal from diagnosable mental health conditions. And there is such nuance that people who don’t have the degrees in the training, they just don’t get, they just don’t get the nuance and the fragility of the human psyche and when we start playing in those waters, and we don’t have the skills to hold someone’s psyche together and something goes wrong. Not only is that crappy as like a that’s a crap outcome for that client. But you’re exposing yourself to potentially unnecessary litigation. Consumers actually taking action against you. 

Dr Hayley Kelly  19:47

So like this is not just in the case of like, leave it to us, we’re so elitist? You don’t have the skills and qualifications? No, no, if you do damage and stuff goes wrong, you’re liable under Consumer Law for those outcomes, so that’s really important to stay safe, just from like a business perspective. So if it’s a diagnosable mental health condition, or if it’s smells, sounds like, could be, leave it alone. Refer to therapy.

Shannon Dunn  20:19

And I think because like you said, there’s so much misunderstanding from the broader community, who would find themselves in business, perhaps in coaching, mentoring, consulting, one of those words they use and describe what they do. But they’re talking about helping people supporting people. And they come to connect with clients individually, and in groups that have a lot of either actual or potential mental health diagnoses. And what comes in with that individual is some of that into whatever the context of them working together is right. And not having that awareness of what is going on for that individual or that collective group, the impacts the work you’re doing could be having on them, and when to actually refer and having an appropriate referral pathways. And this is something that’s bugged me a long time. Yeah. And something that I talk a lot about in particular module that I offer to my coaches that do their self leadership coaching certification, using the Thrive Factor Framework, and bringing in my counseling and therapy background, to expand their awareness of things, like all of the things that could happen, when you’re working closely with people and when to refer, what duty of care is, what scope of practice is, all of those kinds of things. So it’s so good to find somebody else talking about that through a different lens. But it’s such an important thing to understand. And with the lack of regulation, or I think I’m hearing it more referred to as self regulation in the coaching industry then there are often are no qualifications, no tangible kind of things to support someone to know how to work with an individual. And parts of their psyche are going to be present in everything you do. It’s just part of working with people.

Dr Hayley Kelly  22:13

Absolutely, absolutely. You’re, you’re 100% spot on there. And I And again, I think the lack of, or the presence of the grayness and our inability to really, really, like move these into their own boxes in terms of like, this is therapy and this is always coaching, I think means that well meaning and well intentioned coaches slip into places where they didn’t even intend to go, but because they weren’t conscious and cognizant of the fact that they end up going, Oh, my God, how did how did we get here? And how the hell do I support this person now? Which is for a coach to be sitting there that can we really confronting for them.

Shannon Dunn  22:56

Very. I think considering the conversations that I’ve had with others in the coaching space and have found themselves there at some point in time or multiple points of time, in their work as a coach. Often I have heard from them that it’s been some time into the experience with a client, where damage from one of a better word has been done before there’s any awareness on anyone’s part of kind of how it spiraled the wrong way. And then as you said, just sit there and it’s like, well, I don’t know what to do next. Like what what do I do with this? Because they don’t understand things like how to refer, what’s appropriate to refer, how to do all of that, how to have a quite awkward or difficult conversation with your client, that coaching and what they’ve been doing with you is actually not appropriate in the best for them. 

Dr Hayley Kelly  23:47

Yeah, how do you not only that, like, I strongly believe that all coaches should have at a minimum, some training in trauma informed coaching. So if you don’t want to go for the whole hog, like an ICF credentialing, okay, I think there are pros and cons for and against that. But on a bare minimum, I think that all coaches should be trained in trauma informed coaching. Because in the moment where – and I’ve seen it unfold during my ICF training – where the head coach, so the woman who was running the program, unintentionally triggered a trauma response, and she was not equipped, to hold that person’s nervous system. And it did really horrible damage, not just to the person who had the trauma response, but also to her as a facilitator and everyone who was witnessing that unfold. That’s not a great place for anyone to be. So at a bare minimum. At least know what to do in a moment if someone’s nervous system is all of a sudden triggered because of something that’s happened in the coaching container. 

Dr Hayley Kelly  25:04

I would love for the day to come where all coaches can say I feel equipped and confident. Not that I’m going to treat trauma, but that I can hold a person who is having a trauma response. And make them  feel like they’re being held until they can then go and get the help that they need, or get them to a point where they’re feeling regulated enough, by the close of the session, that they’re not going to go out and completely fall apart. That will be an amazing day.

Shannon Dunn  25:35

Simple things in reality, but missed so often. And I’ve equally seen having been a participant on anything from a retreat to a workshop to a full day kind of experience in the business space, or self development space, where something does come up for somebody, they have some kind of a response or reaction or trigger or activated whatever we want to use, but say have some kind of a response to something that they have heard or seen, had said to them, observed happening in somebody else. One of the many kind of examples that comes to mind is looking at the facilitator, basically saying to somebody that their emotional response, which was a lot of loud crying, in response to something somebody else had shared, was inappropriate for the space we were in. Right, that kind of stuff. I was horrified. Of course. What can I do, I’m not the facilitator here. But like, I’ve found a way to kind of work and support. But again, being recognized that that was not my role to do that, too. And I’ve got many stories like that, I’m sure you have as well, when we see these.

Dr Hayley Kelly  26:46

Absolutely, like so many horrifying moments, that I could probably write a very epic novel about the the dark side of the coaching industry. Absolutely. But I think for the most part, like, yes, there are some charlatans, and there’s some really gross stuff that happens, particularly in the top echelon of the coaching and online space. But I think for the most part, like 90% of the coaches in the coaching industry, are well meaning good people, they really and truly want to help. And for a lot of coaches, I think they are coming from an experience that they have had that they want to now go on to on to support other people with. So they want to help, and they want to do the right thing. And I just don’t think they’re informed enough to not get themselves or their clients in trouble. And again, that’s not a great place for anyone to be.

Shannon Dunn  27:41

No, no, not at all. And I’ve seen somewhat of a shift in more coaches, and therapists like yourself,  you cross the both of them, talking about the importance of these kinds of things, and sharing their own experience of coming into a space, particularly coaches, of the awareness of what they were doing and how it wasn’t actually helpful or purposeful, meaningful, useful for any of their clients. And what they’re doing now, to counteract that in terms of their own learning, even changing careers that no longer coaching, or no longer coaching, or taking time out from their coaching to be in that space of the added learning, awareness and being informed. And that warms my heart to see it.

Dr Hayley Kelly  28:32

Me too, because know better, do better. Right? Like, I think that’s one of the most important things that we can do as human beings is once we see something that needs to be fixed, we take steps to do the fixing, especially when it’s something potentially so profound as someone’s psychological wellbeing that we’ve got in our hands. Once you know better, the impetus is on you to do better, whatever that looks like. 

Dr Hayley Kelly  28:58

I think one of the other things, to get back to the original question of what’s the difference? I also seen in terms of like human functioning. So I have this really easy to digest scale that I tend to use with my therapists in particular, to help them understand like, where do I exist as a therapist, and where do I start being a coach. And we sort of think about like a horizontal line where on the extreme left hand side is minus five, on the extreme right hand side is positive five, and right in the middle of that is zero. And this is the line of human functioning. Okay, minus five is usually where they would present for therapy, like they are no longer functioning, presence of clinical symptoms, they’ve got diagnosable mental health condition. That’s the place where undoubtedly, that person needs to be in therapy. 

Dr Hayley Kelly  29:50

And the goal of therapy, particularly under the model of care that we’ve got, which is why so many of us have burnt out. The goal of therapy is to get them back to zero, right? So where zero is, you’re now a functional member of society again. You’re back to work, you’re getting out of bed every day, you’re eating meals, you’re doing all of the things that are “expected of you”. So you’re functioning. Anything below that. So anything that exists below functional, should be relegated to the realm of therapy, in my opinion. Yeah, that makes sense. I think it makes sense too. And I think it’s really, it’s like, it’s an easy way for us to sort of think about, is this always going to be a hard and fast rule? No, probably not. But I think it’s one of those hard lines that we could probably draw in the sand ago, you know, what, if it’s anything below zero, I’m just going to leave it to the therapists to deal with that stuff. 

Dr Hayley Kelly  30:45

Because it’s more than likely that there is some, as you sort of progress from zero to minus one to minus two all the way up to minus five, what you’re going to see in terms of human functioning, is subclinical presence of symptoms. Right. They’re just not at the point where we could whip out a diagnostic criteria and go yes, you now meet the all of the checkboxes to be diagnosed with this thing. They’re not there yet, there’s a progress up, that’s when we just see the increase in symptomatology. So let’s just leave that to therapists. 

Dr Hayley Kelly  31:22

From zero to plus five. However, I think that is the realm where coaches excel. So we’re taking someone who is functioning into the space of thriving, right. So there’ll be things that are happening in their life that are quite specific, that are standing in the way of them. And if they shifted them, they would see an exponential improvement in their life.  So it might be that, like, I have difficulties standing on stage, or speaking in front of like, public speaking. And it’s not like a I have social anxiety. Yes, very dislike that. That way they get oh my god, I’m just so sweaty. And that feels really uncomfortable. And I can’t catch my words, because my nervous system was, like completely firing.

Shannon Dunn  32:15

Normal – I don’t really love the word normal – but a normal normal nervousness. But for some people, that normal nervousness is overwhelming to the point that they can struggle to take action, right. But as you said, it’s not a diagnosable mental health condition.

Dr Hayley Kelly  32:30

Exactly. And it’s preventing them from having something that they want present in their life. Yes. And I think that’s the space where coaches truly do have a wonderful skill set, to support people to move through some of those barriers that are prohibiting optimal performance, or thriving. And if we think about it in that way, I really like being able to sort of plot it onto like this spectrum of human functioning, because it doesn’t mean that this is black and white, like at this point, at least, and at this point is that.. no, no, no. It gives us the impression that there’s this spectrum that we move along. Yeah. And at one end, we definitely don’t want to go there. As a coach, we leave that to the therapist. But on the other end, I definitely have the skills. But I’ve got to remember that, because there’s a spectrum, if you can go up, you can come down and if you can go down, you can come up. If things go wrong, I again, I feel equipped enough that I can recognize it when it does go wrong. And I can move into action and get that person the support that they need. Even if it means referring out for either concurrent therapy, or a pause in the coaching container, so they can go and address that stuff, and then resume the work that they’re doing with you.

Shannon Dunn  33:47

I think that’s an incredible skillset for a coach particularly to be able to learn, is that recognition, and the what to do about it. And as I said earlier, how to have those what will feel very potentially difficult, uncomfortable, awkward conversation with your client about what you’ve recognized, and your view on the most appropriate support for them at that time. I mean, I know this will be partly influenced by my professional background, but in my intake for coaching  -not a fabulous word. But in welcoming clients to my world, whether it be one on one or in groups, I often ask them about their health history. Just to get a sense of where someone’s at. And are you seeing  any health professionals of any kind. I don’t need to know the names of them, just to have an awareness because that gives me more information. If something does happen or occur for a client, it may be related to something else that’s going on for them whether that’s a mental health related thing or a physically impactful thing

Dr Hayley Kelly  33:58

100%. And again, like it’s something that’s so simple to implement. If you’re already doing coaching intake, which I think hopefully most people do have some degree of line of questioning before you get into a coaching relationship, especially if it’s one on one. But it’s something that’s so simple to implement, and yet has a potentially profound impact on your effectiveness, your ability to get that person the results that they’re after, your wellbeing, their wellbeing, the types and I guess the power of the transformation, and therefore the testimonials or feedback that you get, like, it’s so simple, but it is absolutely, it’s so wide reaching. 

Dr Hayley Kelly  35:44

And again, it’s even thinking about, if someone did write on an intake form, for example, that they’re currently seeing a psychiatrist or they’re currently on particular medication for a mental health issue, or they’re seeing a therapist. It’s bringing that into the conversation. So having the skills as you said, to have those, and I don’t even think this is me, and I’m autistic. So sometimes I’m like, just is what it is right? Like, I don’t really get the the attachment that we have to these difficult conversations, just say it how it is. But being able to bring that into a conversation with someone and then have plans in place. Right. So I see that you’ve said X, Y and Zed on this intake form. Can you tell me a little bit more about that? Yeah. 

Dr Hayley Kelly  36:27

So that you know, as a coach, what the hell am I dealing with here? Is this a huge red flag in terms of they’re not appropriate at all for my service? And do I need to refer them out? If it’s something that you feel like, you know what, I’m really glad I know this information. But my judgment is telling me we can move forward. What I would that be saying to my client as a coach is, thank you so much for this information is so helpful for me in terms of understanding how we might be able to work together best to get you the results and the outcomes that you’ve signed up for. One of the things that I do when people do flag that they have X, Y and Zed is that we create a bit of a plan around what we can do together should things go haywire. 

Dr Hayley Kelly  37:14

 And so it might be like simple things like, what has happened in the past, when the depression has flared up? What have you found help? And just sort of thinking through, like, being really clear with the client of like, what is the plan? If shit goes sideways? What’s that going to look like? How do I know as a coach, that it’s gone sideways? And how can I best support you to get the help that you need if it does go sideways? Yeah, not only does that help you and your business, I can absolutely guarantee you that 99% of your coaching clients will appreciate the hell out of you for having that level of integrity and insight, they will feel so seen, they will feel so held. And their level of confidence in your competence as a coach will go up as a result.

Shannon Dunn  38:11

Instantly escalate. I think when someone’s actually been trained as a coach, they understand the coaching, the core coaching methodology, and it being a space of inquiry, and about working with individuals or groups to identify resources to support them on their journey, their path, their whatever they want to call it, to move from where they are to where they want to be. So that talks to that, but where the challenge lies is the lack of training, qualifications, expertise, the modeling of coaches, coaching coaches, coaching coaches, where there’s no one with any qualification and understanding of what coaching methodology actually is.

Dr Hayley Kelly  38:52

And the huge misnomer, and in fact, I would think it’s the really harmful narrative that lived experience is enough. No, it’s not. No, it’s not. No, that’s not a skill. It’s not a skill set lived experience is not a skill set.

Shannon Dunn  39:09

No, no, it’s, it’s could be value add. 

Dr Hayley Kelly  39:16

Generally is a value add.

Shannon Dunn  39:17

Yeah. But it’s, as you said, it’s not a skill set that we can rely on in terms of credibility and integrity and all the other things that go into that. So interesting. I’ve got more questions I want to ask you, I love love where we went with this so far, though, but I’d like to know a little bit more about things that have come up for you in this shift from therapy to coaching. All of the conversations that you’ve had with probably coaches and therapists and that those that are shifting like yourself from the therapy space to coaching, like what kind of things have come up for you that have been challenging and how have you worked through those to keep moving forward? And I think ultimately, how to be a definition of Therapists Rising right? Rising as a therapist.

Dr Hayley Kelly  40:00

Definitely. So I think like tacking on to the end of what we’ve just been talking about one of the, one of the big things that I struggle with is seeing the really unethical crap stuff that happens in the coaching and online space. Like it’s something that to my very core, and very socially justice driven. It’s the autistic me when I see things that are not fair. And like that is not fair. And I feel compelled to do something about it. But that’s a real big struggle for me. 

Dr Hayley Kelly  40:31

And drawing on a very recent experience I had with a very big name in field where there was some really disgusting things that were happening at there in-person retreats for their community where they were, they were not holding themselves to the standards that a coach should be, and doing some damage. So there’ll be people running out of the room crying, and being traumaed and all of the rest of it. And I really struggle with that. Because there is, I think, a very pervasive mentality that you don’t question the hierarchy in coaching, right? So the coaches coaching coaches, coaching coaches, there’s a line that if you sort of got out a like a genogram, where we draw like a family tree, they all sort of traced back to the same names.

Shannon Dunn  41:21

To the sources. Yeah, yes. And it’s no surprise to me that, therefore, that coaching has been related by people trying to explain it as an MLM kind of multi level marketing. Yeah, that I think you and I need to remind people that there are plenty of qualified coaches working in integrity as ethically as they can, who don’t just coach coaches.

Dr Hayley Kelly  41:44

Exactly. But there’s also this really strong undercurrent of unethical crap that happens. And when I’m put in positions where I have a PhD, I also have a Master’s in clinical psychology. I’m a published author, an academic, like, I think from like a resume perspective, I’m probably going to be one of the most qualified people in a room of coaches. Just from like a like a resume perspective. 

Dr Hayley Kelly  42:16

And to sit there feeling like I can’t say anything, because I’m scared of the retaliation. I’m scared of being cancelled. I’m scared that it’s going to impact my ability to build my business. That is just mind boggling. That me as a PhD, sits in a room and looks at usually  middle aged white men standing on stage coaching coaches to coach coaches. And I feel scared to stand up for the things that I believe. And I think I’ve got a fairly strong ethical barometer, because I have to right, like it comes with being a therapist and I think a lot of coaches probably also have that. But sitting there and knowing that really unethical things are transpiring, and feeling too scared to say anything is something that I have really struggled. And I think from a personal perspective,  I’ve always felt like the troublemaker. 

Dr Hayley Kelly  43:21

So like my whole life. I was the kid that talk too much that got sent outside and I got a detention in religion because I said that rainbows were not made of God, they were just light reflecting off rain. Like, I’m that kid, right? So I’ve always felt like the black sheep, the one that doesn’t fit in the one that rocks the boat, the disruptive one. And so to sit in that spot and go, I’m gonna have to be that person, I’m gonna have to be that disruptive kid that gets sent outside, gets ostracized, gets cut off and alienated from the group and the tribe. And that’s a really upsetting place to be. And holding that against, but this is wrong. Yes. And how do I reconcile when I see something so blatantly unethical? And that goes against my values. When I’m simultaneously holding this internal story of like, don’t be disruptive. Fit in. Don’t question the status quo, it will affect your business.

Shannon Dunn  44:33

At odds with each of those parts of yourself, isn’t it? It’s like this into constantly struggling.  Just to interrupt or add to what you’ve been saying there anyone who’s listening, who is aware of the Thrive Factor Archetypes, the framework that I have as the underpinning thing in my business model and everything I do and teach. There are 12 individual Archetypes. And in listening to you today, there are three that are screaming at me. It’s like hello, look at us, the Mentor Teacher, which talks through all of your qualifications and your love of inquiry and learning.  The Mediator Diplomat, which is a truth teller, who sits in that space of it’s this or it’s that. So yes, I understand the the contribution of ADHD to that. But the Mediator Diplomat standalone is a very much of this is how it’s got to be. And if something is not fair, right, just or equal, she’s got to do something about it, she can’t move forward. And then the Pioneer Seeker, which speaks to what you just shared around, she’s the disrupter of the 12 Archetypes, the one that always feels like she doesn’t fit in, thinks differently, moves differently, believes differently, finds herself wondering why others kind of don’t get where she’s at. She’s very innovative. And the Pioneer word speaks of actually goes first. So in thinking about Therapists Rising and what you’ve created there, I’m sure that you know, you were early on in that shift from therapy to coaching and then doing something about it. So I just had to interject with those you.

Dr Hayley Kelly  45:58

I appreciate that analysis so much everything that you said there was like yes, that is totally me. 

Shannon Dunn  46:04

Mini little Thrive Factor profiling experience. We have between three and six in our  own unique profile. But those three were as I said  big highlights, like hello, look at us. So yeah, you being you.  I’m sure you have in  your multitudes of study, Mentor Teacher, – and fellow one of those right here. You’ve come across Archetypes and Archetypal frameworks, and you’re using Archetypes, so many different ways. One of the things I love about Archetypal frameworks thorough, proven reliable ones is that they don’t lie, they’re so insightful. So that’s it, I can hear it was listening to your language,  reading your bio earlier and all the things around your qualifications, and what you stand for ,what your values are. And there’s three of your Archetypes right there.

Dr Hayley Kelly  46:58

Yeah, I appreciate that so much. And I think  it’s such an important thing to find a way to remove the crap that sits on top. And I think from like a coaching perspective, space, some of the crap that sits on top of this is like, there is an element of MLM to the coaching world, right? Where there is like this is not necessarily spoken about. Like it’s sort of just drifts underneath the surface. But there’s this thing of like everyone has to bow down to the cult leader. You don’t speak against the cult, you don’t speak against the cult leader, for fear of being ostracized. And I think that plays on our natural tendency as human beings. Like we have a strong biological evolutionary drive to belong, like it is literally hardwired into us to belong to a tribe because it’s safe. And so I think these types of establishments and systems where there’s this hierarchy in place, and the threat is well we’ll just kick you out, with plays on all of our insecurities, as human beings.

Shannon Dunn  48:14

So much and you see, occasionally someone I find stepping into their brave courageous space, and sharing how they felt when an experience happened for them, or what something they’d observe happened to somebody else, some they’d heard about, and the need to share it,  to speak their truth is such an incredible thing for someone to do when there is all this going on in the background. And we’re also seeing examples, I certainly have seen many of them, of people being ostracized judge told various things and you’re sitting there reading or listening, or does this really happening? Like it? You know?

Dr Hayley Kelly  48:59

Absolutely, and it is, right. But I think the heartening thing about it is, again, coming back to home, right, like, what is what is true for me? And what are my non-negotiables in terms of the life that I’m building, my values. Because when we come back home, and when I was sort of able to hold those two things together, and I was standing at the front, and I was like, if you could see me at this event, I was in the foyer literally pacing backwards and forwards for about 45 minutes just going What the hell do I do? This feels really gross, and I’m crying and  all the things. 

Dr Hayley Kelly  49:41

But the moment that it changed for me and I knew exactly what I needed to do was a moment that I thought to myself, well, dp I really want to be part of the like, Okay, if they kick me out, but do I really want to be part of like, do I really be associated with this? Yeah, yeah. like they’re not my people. They like clearly don’t have the same values or way of being in the world that I really want to surround myself with. And is the lure of seven or eight figure business is it worth, like literally abandoning myself?

Shannon Dunn  50:20

Thats compromised who you innately are in the world. And so I find it interesting. Again, another whole topic, but the rise in the last few years of what feels like particularly the business coaching space, an obsession with how much money you’re earning as a measure, or to use in your marketing as a measure for how great a coach you are.

Dr Hayley Kelly  50:42

100%. It’s so manipulative, and it’s one of… the I think you would probably get this… I was speaking on a summit a couple of weeks ago, and the summit organizer, who is also a therapist was like, so like, tell me the lowdown? How much are your clients actually making? And I’m like, that’s the wrong question. Like, it’s the wrong question, because that’s the thing that the coaching industry has used as like the flag in the sand of ….

Shannon Dunn  51:10

it’s a measure of success. 

Dr Hayley Kelly  51:13

It means that we become obsessed with all of the wrong things. It means that, therefore, money becomes the motivator and the driver instead of service and impact, which I think small business owners, entrepreneurs, and business owners in general, they all want to make a contribution to the world, they all want to help people in their own unique way, whether that’s like making life easier, or providing valuable service, it doesn’t matter. But I think at their core, they want to help, they want to do the right thing. And when we shift out of that, and we have instead this focus an utter obsession with dollar signs, it means that we’re going to be more likely to go down the slippery slope of going against our ethics and our moral code, because it’s in service of the dollar. \

Dr Hayley Kelly  52:00

Whereas I am of the mentality, you probably agree with this, Shannon, but I’m of the mentality that if you orientate yourself from that place of naturally wanting to serve and impact people, and combine that with really good solid business skills, strategy and advice, money will follow. You don’t have to be obsessed with money, you have to be obsessed with making a difference. And doing it in a way that makes good business sense. And if you do those two things together, often enough, money will come.

Shannon Dunn  52:34

Agree. And I’ve seen it happen time and time again, in my work, 18 years of my own coaching practice or business. Couple of decades coaching, and I have seen it time and time again, that that is the reality. And yet, I have also seen the other version of people who have chased the dollar and how quickly they burnt out and how the expansion on things like self judgment and criticism and comparison, and the impacts, negative impacts, long lasting negative impacts of those spaces that their  mind, their thoughts, their feelings go to, because they’re not measuring up to those measures of success that somebody else has told them are the only things to focus on. Their lack of ability to have a life. They’re paying out more than they’re earning to have all of the team and all the the glory of having all these people around them and that kind of thing. The having to show up and showcase a certain lifestyle that’s so far removed from their reality, or who they actually are.

Dr Hayley Kelly  53:40

And when they have those things, is this sort of like this moment of like, oh, is that it? And was that really worth it? If it came at the expense of my relationships, my mental health, my wellbeing? Like, at the end of the day, probably not. Like, it doesn’t matter what that dollar figure is, yes, we all want financial security and that’s 100%, it has to factor into your business equation. But if it’s the driving factor, and again, the complete and utter obsession that we have within the coaching industry is doing a huge disservice because the feedback that I consistently get from the therapists in my programs are things like I finally was able to take a holiday. But they’re not talking about the fact that I’ve got five figures in my bank account, or I just had this massive launch. Those things seem to pale in comparison to things like I was able to retire my husband from his nine to five, or I’m now able to homeschool my kids because I have the freedom and the financial safety to do that. Or I’ve just opened my new practice and it’s going amazingly well and I’ve got these incredible employees that I’m surrounded by every day. Like to me I don’t really care about what the dollar figure is on that. Those are the things that give me the goosebumps.

Shannon Dunn  55:01

Yes, yeah, it’s what the earning money or being profitable in your business because again, I don’t care what someone’s turnover is I want to know what their profitability is. I have coached many businesses over the years making seven and eight figures who struggle to pay their employees – or themselves. Well, what’s that about? But yeah, no, we’re kind of joking about it. But it’s a reality for some people. And their impacts on their life, on their relationships, on their physical and mental wellbeing are so huge. And life lasting for a lot of them is like,  what are you doing to yourself? And good thing – how exciting. You’re doing this to yourself. So you can stop this right here? Like, let’s learn what we need to do to unravel this.

Dr Hayley Kelly  55:47

I absolutely. I couldn’t agree more. 

Shannon Dunn  55:50

Opportunity to redefine success. Again, another topic entirely. And it’s something I definitely have talked about already on the podcast. So I could talk to you for hours and hours and hours. Like, get to some other questions. And there’s one last thing specifically about you that I want to ask before I get into some of the questions we ask all our guets as a bit of a wrap up. When I invite someone to come on as a guest for the podcast, I asked each of you to share with me. You know, What would someone who knows you well tell me about you? And I loved your answer so much. I want to talk a little bit more about if you remember what you said.

Dr Hayley Kelly  56:23

I don’t remember, oh my gosh, this is  gonna be fun.

Shannon Dunn  56:27

You shared that, like your superpower from somebody else’s perspective, people that know you well, is seeing through people’s bullshit stories and finding and reflecting back their brilliance. Like oh, yes, I get that. Love it. Tell us a bit more about that. And how, I guess I feel when I read that it felt like a sense of fun. Also, being able to gift that to people.

Dr Hayley Kelly  56:49

Doesn’t always feel fun. 

Dr Hayley Kelly  56:51

Doesn’t in the moment for sure. 

Dr Hayley Kelly  56:53

For me, it’s always fun. But for the receiver sometimes they’re like, oh, god, she’s seeing it.

Shannon Dunn  56:58

I’m sure I was sitting in the coach space of the fun part more than the client space of, Oh, I’ve just had this like called out ,kind of like the big spotlight on this part of you know, what’s been going on. And I do it too Hayley, a certain client that will be doing the same thing over and over and continually self sabotaging for want of a better way to describe it. And you kind of point out like, we’ve talked about this many times over. Or you know, someone who’s so attached to a particular goal is like I don’t feel like you really are. It’s okay to let it go. Let’s talk about something more useful. So tell me some more about this from your perspective?

Dr Hayley Kelly  57:37

Yeah, I think I think it’s one of those moments where like, you sort of look at the convergence of life experience, training, education, who you are, the nuances of you. It’s one of those, I think, beautiful moments where you go, I can see how my ability to do this is born out of the training I’ve had as a therapist, my ability to sit with people and truly observe the human psyche at play, and then having the skills to formulate a way to approach this in a way that feels respectful, but nonetheless gets them.  

Dr Hayley Kelly  58:16

I think it’s also just by sheer virtue that I am autistic. And, again, I value honesty and transparency, like say what you mean. And mean what you say, is like my life. Like, just don’t beat around the bush, just tell me what you mean. I think that is infused into my coaching. And I think my life philosophy of we are all here with a job to do, right, like we are every single human being, I believe, to the core of my soul is here with purpose. And I think everyone’s purpose is to serve others. Like we are at our very core relational beings, we are here to be in relationship, to use our gifts to make the world a better place. And whether we like it a lot or not and whether we’re able to access it or not, I think is a completely different story. I don’t think it changes the fact that that potential exists. Yeah, the potential is absolutely there. 

Dr Hayley Kelly  59:21

And I believe that in order to do that, in order to serve the world in your own unique way, in the most powerful way that you can, you need to get yourself out of the way to do that, right. So find the things that are standing in the way of you being your most brilliant self and heal them, do the work. Do whatever it takes to get that shit out of the way so you can get on with the damn job. Yeah, because you only get one chance to do this, right. So you don’t have time to waste and I have that mentality and my coaches call me the “fluffy sledgehammer”. Yeah, because I do what we love and compassion but I’m also not gonna let you off.

Shannon Dunn  1:00:03

I’ve been called the “smiling assassin” is that better or worse?

Dr Hayley Kelly  1:00:07

I like fluffy sledgehammer I think smiling assassin…. 

Shannon Dunn  1:00:12

Like it was only a once off, that in the room that it was shared. It was agreed by the others because it was a group experience I was facilitating. I’ve also one of the Archetypes that I have of my Thrive Factor profile is called the Inspirer Believer is the cheerleader Archetype. She has a  beautiful ability to put a positive spin on things, but she’s also a realist. And I remember again, in a retreat, I was hosting one of my very black and white, to the point Mediator Diplomat Archetype said to me, I finally get this Archetype now. I was like, What do you mean, she’s like, I’ve just watched you turn everybody shit into something with a little bit of glitter and sparkle.

Dr Hayley Kelly  1:00:53

You’ve polished the turd.

Shannon Dunn  1:00:57

I love the way people describe things and reflect back.

Dr Hayley Kelly  1:00:59

I completely agree. And like, I feel really proud of my fluffy sledgehammer coaching abilities. Because, again, it’s directly proportionate to my beliefs, my ideals, my values around like, I need to be the best best version of me in terms of who I am as a coach, to be able to support my clients by asking the right questions, seeing through the crap, holding space for them, supporting them in whatever way they need me to do. I’ve got to be the best version of that, so that they can be the best version of them. And that’s my contribution to the world. Right? So when I create these spaces where I’m doing my best work, I am at my highest potential, then everyone else around me has an opportunity to do that, too. That’s the ripple effect. And then they go on to impact the world in their way. Like to me  that literally brings tears to my eyes. Because to me, that’s like a life well lived. It doesn’t really get much better. 

Shannon Dunn  1:02:12

Okay. I’ve got a few more questions to ask before we wrap up for today. The ones that I like to ask every one of our guests, just to bring us back to this whole energy of She Leads She Thrives. So the first one, I’d love to know, what role does leadership play in your life and business at present? So just to the point answer around that, what role does leadership play?

Dr Hayley Kelly  1:02:39

I think leadership is it’s such an interesting, it’s such an interesting concept. I think. And I think for a long time, I misinterpreted leadership as being management. And I now realize that those two things are very, very different.  And I think management is about, there’s an external focus on there’s a management of, whereas I think leadership is about from the inside out. And I think it comes back to this idea of like self leadership, and walking the walk and talking the talk. And so for me, leadership in my life is showing up in the way that I expect my students and my clients to show up. Like if I’m not willing to do the work, if I’m not willing to walk the walk, but I’m expecting these people to do these hard things, well, that’s not leadership. 

Shannon Dunn  1:03:33

I agree with you.

Dr Hayley Kelly  1:03:34

It’s not leadership. And I think, I think the quality of leadership that I really love is the idea of like, the willingness that I will go first. So I think, again, management is around is about like shuffling and management of the people. I think leadership is the willingness to put up your hand and say, I’ll do the hard things. And not only do the hard things, I’m going to do them first so it makes your job easier. Yeah. And so the more work that I put in, the more launches that I have under my belt, the more reading and money that I spend on developing my business skills means that my students and clients don’t have to. So it’s like I will go and wade the muddy waters, because I can come back with the fruits of the labor, and the community then benefits from that. And I think that’s leadership and when I think about some of the most profound leaders I’ve had, that is certainly the qualities and attributes that I would speak about for them.

Shannon Dunn  1:04:39

Yeah, love it. Love it, love it. So moving on. How do you know when you’re thriving?

Dr Hayley Kelly  1:04:44

Good question. I think if I feel lit up every day to get out of bed, and I think if I can say each day that I have tended to the most important things for that day without attachment to that, you know, that doesn’t mean that those things are going to be the same things tomorrow, or the next day. To me, I think that that is thriving. And what that means, I guess is it’s the ability to look at all of the different plates that I’m spinning, with all of the different balls that I’m juggling, as a Mum, as an entrepreneur, and business owner, all the things right, and being able to go, which plate do I need to put down today, or for the next week or for the next month, so that I can give the attention to the other plates that need it right now. 

Dr Hayley Kelly  1:05:40

And I’m flexible enough that I know that I’m going to be able to pick that plate back up at some point, and potentially put another plate down. And I think when I approach life in that way, with fluidity and curiosity, it feels like thriving, because at that point, I can go, you know, my health feels like the plates starting to slip, I need to give it some more attention. Which of the plates that I’m juggling right now? I just completely confused metaphors. But which plate needs to be put down, right? Like, what attention do I need to re-divert from something else knowing that I’m going to be able to come back to that, but this is the thing that needs to… like it’s that constant…

Shannon Dunn  1:06:22

To reprioritize, isn’t it? And to have that discernment to go, okay, what is actually needing the most attention and support from me? And what can I do to provide that for myself to be like you said earlier, the kind of individual that you’re choosing to be in the world, which is also an expression, I think of that self leadership too,  all comes in together.

Dr Hayley Kelly  1:06:44

Yeah. Completely agree. I think you’ve said that beautifully. 

Shannon Dunn  1:06:49

All right. So if anyone’s listening, which I am sure, because we get some great downloads, and listen numbers on all of our episodes, and they not yet connected with you, where do they go to find out more about what you’re doing and to follow your journey and also to find out about the podcast that you have, and the great episodes that get published quite regularly at the moment. As you said to me earlier, your podcast comes in seasons, which I love the many different formats of podcasts. But right now, we’re having a chat now, kind of kind of August/September of 2023, you have had some really regular episodes coming out. So where can people connect with you to connect with all that?

Dr Hayley Kelly  1:07:31

Amazing, yes, I would love you to come over to the Gram, where I am currently most active. That may change at some point in the future. But that’s currently where I’m most active. So I’m at @Dr. HayleyKelly on the Gram. And the podcast is a Therapist Rising podcast, which you can find on all of your platforms. And the website is therapistrising.com.

Shannon Dunn  1:08:00

Fabulous. And we will, as we always do, make sure the links to everything are included in the show notes. So there’s no excuse for anyone to say they couldn’t find you. And in terms of your podcast, Hayley, I know that listening to the episode that you had around the dark side of coaching, you’ve got some great episodes, for people that not might not even have any interest in their therapeutic space, I still think there’s incredible value there. 

Shannon Dunn  1:08:25

But that one was a really big one. I know you shared with me earlier that the increase in the listen numbers around that episode, no surprise to me that it was popular. So we might link in as well for people to listen to make it really easy for them to find it. So to wrap up for today, what’s a final piece of wisdom that you’d love to share with the audience? So I tend to find that those that are listening in probably majority of a female audience, they’re ambitious, the impact makers, legacy creators, they’re here to make a difference in the world. What’s the final piece of wisdom based on what we’ve talked about today that you’d love to share with them as a parting kind of thought?

Dr Hayley Kelly  1:09:04

So many, I think the first thing that I would say is the guaranteed thing that’s going to be both the biggest growth of your business, but also the most potential risk for your business is you. And I say that going through my own dark nights of souls and expansions and recognizing how my own psyche gets in the way or propels me forward. It is your job as a business owner to understand that the results that you see in your business are, yes going to be in part because of strategy and all of those amazing business things that you put in place, but you have to be the person that you need to be in order to implement those amazing strategies that we talked about and that we see flaunted around online. If you don’t have the self belief, or if you have opposing beliefs, like I’m terrified of failure, I feel not good enough, whatever it is. Understand that whether you like it or not, they will show up in your business journey, and they will impact. No doubt like it’s not an option. It’s not if but when. You can’t opt out, unfortunately, because we are the creators of the business. And so you can rely on all of the strategy you want and absolutely rely on strategy. But strategy is meaningless unless you were the person to implement it successfully.

Shannon Dunn  1:10:45

Yeah. Love it. Love it. Love it, love it. Thank you so much for today, it’s been such a joy. having this conversation with you, I knew it was gonna be great. I always trust my instincts when I connect with someone and then we chat a little bit. And I’m like, yeah, this is  someone I want to come and have on the podcast and have a conversation with. 

Shannon Dunn  1:11:06

So thank you so much for joining me and for sharing your wisdom, your insights, your stories, your knowledge, your real to the point truth, as well, all the different parts of you we got to see today, I’m sure that our listeners are loving that and listeners, go and follow. Dr Hayley, don’t sit back and go that was a nice conversation. If you’re interested in intrigued. Follow up. Listen, you know, I think there’s so much value in us listening to voices and to learn from people that we may not obviously think of the great people out there with incredible wisdom to learn from. But thank you for joining me. Dr. Hayley. Thank you, listeners for joining us, wherever you are in the world have a phenomenal day. And remember, as I say very frequently, I truly believe and will back this. You have a birthright to thrive and I want to see as many people as possible thriving in their own incredible ways. Have a great day.