In this episode
Jane and I talk about
You are going to love my conversation with the witty and excitable Jane McKay who, as a long-term marketer and cheerleader for more fun in business, is also the kind of soul who keeps it real. In this episode we candidly chat about the realities of business, the challenges marketing can bring and why keeping the serious stuff light-hearted is good for everyone.
Connect with guest Jane McKay
Connect with Jane
She Lead She Thrives, the home of inspired conversations, practical and creative wisdom, expansive leadership and business insights, abundant Bragaudacious moments of celebration and useful info you can actually do something with.
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I’m Shannon Dunn, a true OG of the business coaching space, with an obsession with thriving. You are so welcome here. Let’s dive into today’s episode.
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Shannon Dunn 01:16
Great big hello, everyone, and welcome to another guest episode. I’m Shannon Dunn, your host here at She Leads She Thrives and I’m a long term business and self leadership coach with a lot to say and I love of conversations with really interesting souls, which Jane you fit that today. As the guest for today, you very much a very interesting person. I don’t know how/when it was that we first connected but it was some many years ago now.
Jane McKay 01:40
Many, many years back in the jungles of space and time of Facebook, I think.
Shannon Dunn 01:45
Definitely the space. I was saying to someone to talk to just recently again, that was a Facebook group connection. And we worked out that we’d known each other a decade, because we timeline it by how old her daughter was when she and I first connected and her daughter is now well into her teens. And she was quite little when we first met. So you know, probably kind of heading for that realm as well.
Shannon Dunn 02:03
So it’s really great to finally have you here. We’ve had a few like hits and misses attempts to get get you on as a guest and you’re finally arrived. I’ve known you Jane for quite some time. And we have so much I think fun in our conversations when we chat about various different things. Neither of us take business overly seriously in terms of we don’t get caught up in all that. We’re just saying this before we started recording, weren’t we that business can be so dry and dull and monotonous for so many people. And you know, we both said how important it is to bring personality and bring something fun.
Jane McKay 02:41
Fun is one of my core values. Fun is what I bring to every relationship, especially in business. So it’s got to be done.
Shannon Dunn 02:49
For sure. All right, let me read your bio., so we can introduce everyone to who this is we’re going to get stuck into today. And then we’ll get stuck into some cool questions and see what we end up creating for a conversation for everyone to listen to. So Jane McKay is a marketing consultant and coach has been in the business of marketing for more than 16 years,. Starting her freelance career as a copywriter, she then worked as a brand designer, web designer, marketing strategist and coach in her business, Jane McKay Communications. And that’s been since 2009. She works with coaches, consultants and entrepreneurs to grow their service-based businesses profitably, scalably, and sustainably. All the kinds of things you want, right?
Yeah. 100%. And, and it’s incredible how so many business owners put themselves into a job. Hmm, yes. And I’m like, Hey, here’s your official permission to not do that. You don’t have to work nine to five.
Shannon Dunn 03:46
It is a fascinating thing. And I know over the years I’ve had many conversations with clients that I’ve worked with, where kind of highlighting or putting the spotlight on giving them the chance to see that they’ve replicated the crappy job that they may be left, there’s reasons that you left employment, to be in your own business. And when you replicate that, and you wonder why you’re not really in love with your business and not having fun. Like, it kind of makes sense, right?
Jane McKay 04:16
But it feels safe.
Shannon Dunn 04:17
Yeah, of course it does. Because its what we know.
Jane McKay 04:19
Yeah, it feels safe to our bodies to go, Okay, I sit down at 9, and I get up at 5. And in that time, I’m very busy. But are you productive? And are you feeling fulfilled?
Shannon Dunn 04:28
Yeah, I know. Key things to be mindful of. Yeah. Okay. So, to start with kind of our first official question, I’d love to know how you got started in your business and if it was always going to be related to marketing, like was that where you were always going to start? Do you think? 15 years ago?
Jane McKay 04:49
It’s, yeah, yeah. A long time ago. So we did a big tree change from Melbourne, to a very small town in East Gippsland in Victoria. which most of you would know of, because we got really hit badly by the fires. So I did a Master’s in media and did the traditional route of going be a copywriter. And I explored ad agency side like, agency side or client side and I was much more comfortable in terms of my ego in client side because ad agency – scary. And so we did this tree change. And I had a sort of six months to sabbatical of what am I going to do? And I was sitting, having a conversation at the pub, as you do. And I and someone said, what do you actually do? And I said, I’m a copywriter, and someone just turned around to me and said, I need you. And I started my business the next day. I’d already got an ABN and all of that, and went straight into working with that client.
Jane McKay 05:52
And then I got poached into a marketing management role for a not-for-profit. And it was during that role that I was in that pigeon hole of 9 to 5 not feeling particularly fulfilled, doing good work, but pretty bored, that I started a blog. And this was 2010. On WordPress. And from that writing – I love writing. And I inject a lot of personality into my writing. And I’m not afraid to hold back my opinion in my writing – that people coming to me and saying, Hey, can you write for my business? And then it all evolved from there. And I didn’t feel confident at that point to add my graphic design, marketing strategy side into things because what’s funny is I didn’t feel qualified.
Shannon Dunn 06:46
Yeah, which is not an uncommon feeling, right?
Jane McKay 06:49
I have got the piece of paper that says I do copywriting and comms, and that’s all I do. But then in my work, corporate life, I’d been doing graphic design and strategy. I graduated from my master’s in 2005. So I’ve been doing this now for 18 years. So yeah, I can do strategy. And I do less design now. But I still love it. So that’s how I got started. And then it just evolved and snowballed. And then has gone through many iterations, obviously, through having two small children, and having day jobs, and then owning my place as I do coaching, marketing coaching, because I work with my clients to show them, the how and the what, but then they implement it themselves and explain to them the underlying strategy of why we do what we do. And then I love it, because I feel like my little ducks are leaving the nest and going out and doing it by themselves. And I’m so bloody proud of them. I had a client just today that I just worked with for four weeks, and she’s like, you’ve just changed my life. Like, it’s insane. Because I would never have done this myself.
Shannon Dunn 08:03
Yeah, right. In such a short space of time, you can make such an impact with what I would consider some very simple things. Unless you know them, they’re hard, they’re difficult, they’re challenging. They’re they’re part of the unknown and you don’t even realize that, how much easier we can make things. I’m a big lover of the word effortless and I’ve added easeful into that kind of space. It’s interesting to me always that when we go into business, often we have no background or understanding of actually how to run a business. We have skills and expertise, lived and learned experience in our craft, but not necessarily in leading a business. And then we wonder why we struggle with all the business aspects.
And our clients don’t know what they don’t know. So my goal business model for all of my clients is something I sort of learned in the last 12 months. ELF business, which is Easy, Lucrative Fun. Nice. Yeah. And, and they’re the types of business, we have a right to build as business owners. I love seeing that play out for my clients. That big breathe, that sigh of relief that I see. Relief is often the the emotion that my clients experience after working with me because they’re like, I finally understand what I’m meant to be doing.
Shannon Dunn 09:21
Right. I know. I have a feeling you would agree with me here, even coming from a background that includes marketing expertise and understanding. Often it’s my experience, your experience has come from a bigger organizational viewpoint. And the strategies and the foundations and the methodology. Yeah, it’s the same, but applying that bigger picture view of a larger organization to a smaller, often soul, in a business, where that person’s doing everything is a different thing entirely.
Jane McKay 09:57
And that person has to own message and own the brand. And it really does put you in a different headspace, a different mindset. When your beliefs, your identity, are so intertwined with your business and your marketing that what you say, needs to be what you believe. And that’s really difficult when we’re conditioned to be a part of a bigger organization when we make that transition out of corporate into sole business and, and it can be really, really hard for people.
Shannon Dunn 10:32
Very confronting. Suddenly I remember my own experience even having a qualification in business that included modules in small business management, I still was completely unprepared for the realities of wearing all the hats in your business. You’re the marketing manager, you’re the PR manager, you’re
Jane McKay 10:56
Shannon Dunn 10:58
the CFO. If you’ve got team members, you’re the HR, like you’re everything. Plus, you’re creating the content, usually, in the beginning, and trying to work out what it is you want to say, what you offer, how to price it, like there’s so many things.
Jane McKay 11:13
and servicing clients at the same time.
Shannon Dunn 11:16
That is. It’s no surprise that it’s overwhelming. And I know that you love the word “easy” or “easier”. And I’m on the same page with that. I think also we need to be mindful that we don’t deny the reality that business is hard. Yeah. Yeah, it is hard.
Shannon Dunn 11:33
I have had – even last month, I don’t know what energetically was going on last month – but last month was one of the hardest months I’ve ever had in my business. And I’m like, Well, I did create 100 pieces of social media content. But that’s another story.
Jane McKay 11:54
But it was hard. It wasn’t because of that. It was just I don’t know, energetically, it was off. And we need to honor that. We are energetic beings, and stuff goes up and down, stuff changes, and we get PMS, our kids are sick. You know, just the energy is off.
Shannon Dunn 12:12
There’s so many things influencing us at any given point in time. And I know that the program that you have done with me in the past and you’ve also heard me talk about had me on your own podcast talking about the Archetypes. We have our own personal innate psychology, and our own attributes also at play at any given moment in time, responding to and influencing us, but responding to what’s happening to us from an external perspective and internally. So yeah, there’s a lot going on at any given point.
Jane McKay 12:40
Shannon Dunn 12:44
But that doesn’t mean that things can’t be easier. And I know that that’s where you and I are on the same page about that, is guiding and supporting and cheering and coaching our clients to find ways that are easier for them.
Jane McKay 12:58
And easy is not always simple. No. But we can put things in place that are hard now that make our lives easier in the future. Like even something as simple as having a booking system instead of back and forth email for people to book, like, that’s easy and simple. But other things like automating emails and building out those automations. And understanding how those go together. That’s complicated, but it makes your life easier in the future.
Shannon Dunn 13:27
It does, once you know how to do it, then it’s….what do I often say when I use the word effortless? I’m very quick to remind people that that doesn’t mean effort free.
Jane McKay 13:35
Yeah, like passive income.
Shannon Dunn 13:39
It’s the the effortless is the reward comes after putting the effort in. So yeah, sure. Alright, so we’re gonna talk a bit about content, because that’s a big part of what you do. And I feel like, again, looking on the outside you make that look effortless. And I know that content is such a challenge for so many people in entrepreneurship and smaller business. And I also know that you’re super focused on providing really educational content that’s purposeful, and people can actually do something with it, which I love. And what I’ve seen you, I feel like evolve into over the last few years, is more video content, though.
Shannon Dunn 14:13
And I know that I can visualize the faces of so many of my clients when I talk about doing more video or doing video at all, and they’re like, the terror that I don’t know how, what am I going to sound like, what am I going to look like? Do I have to put a full face of makeup on? Like all the different things come rushing forward as to all the reasons why nope, not doing video.
Shannon Dunn 14:37
So we know we both know how challenging it can be for business owners and you’re making it look easy. It’s not and that’s what I wanted to talk to you about. Because I know from my own experience, it’s not easy and sometimes I’m like, you know why, I’ve got so many things I want to say, I don’t even know where to start, so we’re not gonna say anything today on video. Yeah.
Shannon Dunn 14:56
So what are your tips for people that are in that space of overwhelm when it comes to video? Like, where do we start so we can feel a greater sense of ease in something that feels and we know, it can be very hard.
Jane McKay 15:10
It can be hard. The way I talk to my clients about it is, it’s very much like a muscle. And the more you exercise it, the easier it becomes. So I really, really had to get over my own visibility fears to start doing video regularly. I batch on a day where I know energetically, I’m going to feel good about it like Fridays, or like the day I’ve got a podcast and I’ve got a face on. I’m gonna go off now and do some videos. I don’t know what they’re going to be. But boom, I’m just going to write some. You only need to do seven to nine seconds, five to nine seconds. They do not need to be long. In something I was saying. I think it was actually on an Instagram post was they don’t need to be profound. You’re not the Dalai Lama, okay.
Jane McKay 16:01
But I, in this last month, creating 100 – I didn’t do 100 I did 86 short form videos or carousels or whatever – that liberated me to not have to put on a face of makeup. And if that if that’s holding you back, just use a filter. “Toasted almond” is a really nice one. If that’s holding you back, also a really cheap ring light from Kmart will give you beautiful lighting. I create all of my content very intentionally, like I like to see them as value bombs, because they position me as an authority. They give me thought leadership and really short snippets. When I go to write content, I sit down and put myself in the minds of my clients – my dream clients, my clients to be – or draw on conversations I’ve had with clients and think about what they’re struggling with.
Jane McKay 17:12
Because as our clients don’t know what they don’t know, we need to take the time to understand what our clients are struggling with, because we can teach them everything. But if they don’t understand how we can help them. And if we don’t tell them how we can help them, they will never understand the solution that we’re giving them. So I’m very much about, hey, if you’re struggling with this right now, this is what I do. Like I did a carousel last week of if you haven’t hit 5K months yet, this is what I do. Because people often talk about oh, you know, the 10K months. And I know so many small businesses out there, especially sole traders, service-based businesses, who’s primarily who I work with 10K months?! – I can’t even get a 5k month.
Shannon Dunn 17:59
I know. Its interesting isn’t it when you see the trends over the last few years, increasingly focusing on 50K months, 100K months, someone who’s out there just getting their first regular $1,000 in and it’s like what, who, – no that’s not for me, and I’ll never achieve that. And what do I do? What about me? So you’re right, there’s a place for people at different levels. And if labels can support them in that that is part of our ideal kind of client community, then yeah, we got to alter our content to help them to understand that there’s nothing wrong with them because they’re down here, financially, when there’s so much content in the space in which you and I spend time that’s so out of the realms of normal and reality for most people in business.
Jane McKay 18:52
And I just want to say something quickly that a whole lot of people who are selling on financial results, haven’t actually achieved that.
Jane McKay 19:00
They’re making it up. They haven’t actually achieved their 100K months. They’re making it up to sell to people who really, really desperately want that. And then they sell things that won’t get you there. Yeah, I’m calling that out because I see it all the time.
Shannon Dunn 19:22
I’ve talked about this on the podcast, you’ve listened to it, you’ve heard me talk in different ways about everything from I had an episode which has focused purely on why you won’t see me sharing my clients money in my marketing and various other things. And if someone is genuinely achieving really big numbers, that the kind of numbers in a month that would have not that long ago been perceived in for a service business as the pinnacle for an entire year. Good on them. But if that’s the reality, which you have said, and I agree with you- it’s not for a lot of people. It’s the tiniest little percentage of people in business.
Jane McKay 20:01
And is it revenue? Or is it profit?
Shannon Dunn 20:03
Yeah, I think most of the time it might be revenue, if it’s got some truth to it.
Jane McKay 20:07
It’s got a grain of truth. Yeah, profits so much more important. And that is something that I was having a conversation with a client yesterday, she’s like, 20K months, I want to get back to 20K months. And I’m like, cool. But we want to do that without burning you out in the process, because that’s she’s just come back from a long illness. So how can we do that? And I know, passive income is a dirty word. How can we do that in a way that’s not requiring a whole lot of your energy? That feels easy, because I was talking to her yesterday about she was in this place of overwhelm. She’s like, I really want to do a group program. But energetically, it feels really hard for me. And I’m like, Okay, well, what would make it easy? It’s just like the commitment, the time commitment. And it’s like, what if no one comes to the group calls? Simple you just talk on the calls, like they’re there. So anyway, I could talk about that all day.
Shannon Dunn 21:03
On the same page about that one too. Get back to video, though. But tell us why. For anyone who is not aware why video content is such an important consideration in our content strategy.
Jane McKay 21:18
So video, and audio as well, which I’m going to be integrating a lot more of, in terms of a private podcast for my clients sort of deal is intimate. People get to know you, they get to know your weird facial tics, which I realize I have a lot of. They get to hear your voice, they get to feel your energy. And I talk about this all the time is that your energy and how you’re selling and how you’re showing up is way more important than what you’re selling. Because people pay especially in service businesses, for proximity to you. They want to be in your orbit, they want to be in your vibe, they’re like, I want to work with this woman because she makes me feel good. Yes. Not only is she an expert, so like if it comes down to me and someone else, who’s also an expert in marketing of which there are millions, people like I just love your vibe. So video shortcuts that relation that we talk about” know, like and trust” in marketing all the time. Video shortcuts that and if you’re scared about showing up on video, and I work with a lot of clients who are, just assume no one’s going to see it, because that’s the way the algorithm is anyway. No one’s gonna see it, it’ll be fine.
Shannon Dunn 22:40
Yeah, if someone does, I think just trust that if they are the right person to connect with you, that they will. And if they’re not, then that’s great, because it sent them the other way.
Jane McKay 22:53
And if they troll you, that helps you get up in the algorithm, so take it with grace. Say thank you. If you ever want to see some comments, go to my YouTube channel, because I get trolled to oblivion on there. I don’t know why. And I just say, Oh, thank you so much for leaving such a kind comment. And if they keep going, I go. Thank you so much for putting me up the algorithm. I hope you have a wonderful day. And I’m just like really nice to them. But once I left a comment like that, and he’s like, Oh my God, no one’s ever come back to me before. Like, yeah, they were real people on the end of those comments.
Shannon Dunn 23:29
That’s it. That’s it. I love that. You’re bringing the Jane factor of the fun and like let’s make it playful rather than getting all serious and all stuck in the people are saying nasty things about me.
Jane McKay 23:39
What if they don’t like me?
Shannon Dunn 23:42
Not everyone’s going to like us, that’s a good thing.
Jane McKay 23:45
Yeah, I’m not everyone’s cup of tea.
Shannon Dunn 23:46
If we were all the same. And it like, yeah, there’s where is the personality of the world? It’s gone. It’s gone.
Jane McKay 23:53
Its gone into the beige-ness.
Shannon Dunn 23:56
So let’s talk about this challenge that you set yourself, which I think is for August, right, because I know this conversation probably go live a little bit later in 2023. But it’s in September, when I’m chatting now with Jane. And you set yourself this task of creating 100 pieces of content to share across the month. And as you said, You reached 86. That’s phenomenal. That’s how
Well, if I set a goal and hit 86% I’m like what’s that, an A?
Shannon Dunn 24:20
Jane McKay 24:21
Shannon Dunn 24:22
If you want to give it a grade, definitely. Yeah. So I’m curious to understand why you set yourself the task in the first place. Yeah, let’s go there. And then I’ve got some more questions about it.
Jane McKay 24:33
I tell you what, this little challenge I set myself has sparked so many conversations surprised because I set it basically for myself because I wasn’t being consistent enough. Because on a low energy day I’m like I don’t want to show up whereas it forced me to show up. I basically in a month did as much content as I would normally do in three months. So it like compressed that learning into a month, I now have a deeper understanding of what resonates. What gets engagement, what triggers DMs, what people want to hear from me, like so many people have come to me and been “that one, I loved that one”, you know, “that piece of content. That was my favorite”. I’m like, Okay, thanks. Amazing.
Jane McKay 25:23
Why did I do it? To show my clients that creating content doesn’t need to be hard, it doesn’t need to be complicated. Where I have and I’ve worked out my biggest block to creating content is not filming the videos, but it’s writing the captions because I am a writer and I put so much…
Shannon Dunn 25:46
…overthinking, over processing…
Jane McKay 25:48
Not overthinking or over processing., but just I really want to make sure that they’re representative of me. Because my written word to me sort of more valuable than my spoken word. And that’s just the way I feel and act and operate in myself, because I have that identity as a writer. And that is my craft. So I’m like it has to be the serious bit. And carousels take me an age. I could bust out like three, five second videos a day, easy, 3 30 videos a day, easy if I didn’t have to write the captions.
Shannon Dunn 26:12
Ah, so interesting. And we’re all gonna have our thing where we could more likely get blocked, right? And I’m curious to know how many clients or people in your community have said to you, yeah, I get why you did the challenge, you’re showing us it can be easy, but you’re in marketing, you know how to write. So it must be easy for you. Yeah, right. Kinda said that and trying to push back at your, let me show you the way.
Jane McKay 26:47
Actually no one. I haven’t had pushback. I’ve had, oh my God, you’ve inspired me, oh my God, every single post was amazing. I, you know, you’ve really inspired me to get clearer on my content, be more than myself in my content. Actually, so a friend of mine, who is in my Instagram community came up to me at the supermarket the other day, and I was with my son, and she’s like, I have loved all of your content. It has been amazing. And she said to my son, your Mum is just an inspiration. And she walked off and Felix said, Are you famous Mum?
Shannon Dunn 27:22
Oh, that’s so cute!
Jane McKay 27:23
Its like, no darling. No darling.
Shannon Dunn 27:26
You are in some ways. Some ways. I remember hearing a story, this was years, like, a long time ago, in the early days of internet marketing. And I was doing some kind of a program, a learning thing, because it’s what you do when you have the Mentor Teacher Archetype, right? You’re always learning something. But was with a woman who was actually was Australian based, but she was doing so well in terms of her internet marketing presence and teaching it. And her son was a young teenager at the time. And apparently he had been like, focused on his mum for a project at school. Someone who’s achieved something, which is super cute, right? And the teacher and he’d made a deal about how his Mum was famous online. Because in that space, she probably was. And so she was sharing this story about how he’d come home and told her that his teacher questioned this. And wasn’t really sure that he was being truthful about what he was claiming that his Mum had achieved. And his response to her is like, Well, Google her. Evidence is all there. And if we’re talking about Mum being famous online, go and Google her.
Shannon Dunn 28:34
Makes me think about my launching my podcast last year, and I was looking after my youngest niece at the time, she was five. Holly’s now six going on seven, but I was doing something around sharing some content and she heard my voice and she goes Aunty Shannon, why are you talking on the phone? Like, what is going on here? So kind of in five, six year old language explain what a podcast was and she’s like, why would you want to do that? And then she’s kind of looking at things and seeing that there was lots of video and conversations of where there’s her Aunty’s face and voice and she’s like, I don’t get this, but you’re everywhere. For her, Spotify is where she makes her own playlists even as a little tot. But her Aunty was talking about things with people on Spotify. That was like the weirdest thing to…
Jane McKay 29:32
Shannon Dunn 29:34
At the same time, you just wait little one because at some point in time, you might find this Aunty very useful.
Jane McKay 29:41
I still already get hit up – will you build my first website Mum. Okay.
Shannon Dunn 29:46
I love it though. And see that entrepreneurial spirit is carrying through to the kids.
Jane McKay 29:51
My daughter’s YouTube channel is way more successful then mine. Her faceless channel – channels, I should say actually,
Shannon Dunn 29:58
Yeah, brilliant. Love it. Love it. Love it. So that’s cool. So inspiration is not something that surprises me in terms of a word to describe you. And I had a little look at your, I know you’ve taken the free Thrive Factor Archetype assessment. Yeah. And do you remember what that Archetype was that came up as your top. Well, the inspiration word has got something to do with it, its the Inspirer Believer.
Jane McKay 30:26
Ah, yes. Now that’s coming back to me, because I’ve got it in the book. Yeah, my little card in the book. Yeah.
Shannon Dunn 30:33
So the Inspirer Believer, an Archetype you and I share is here to be an inspiration. We want to be inspiring. And yet, often, it takes us quite some time to receive with, I guess, with a belief that we actually are inspiring when someone comes to us and “you’re such an inspiration, you’re so inspiring, I’m so motivated by what you’re doing”. And to an Inspirer Believer, for a long part of our lives, that can sound like the strangest thing to hear yet, we will tell people we want to be inspirational, like it’s such a confused kind of part within that Archetype. So the fact you’re receiving that kind of feedback, is no surprise to me anyway, through knowing you. But it’s an expression of you showing up as your Inspirer Believer, it’s the cheerleader energy.
Jane McKay 30:35
I have so much cheerleader energy.
Shannon Dunn 31:25
And then to be in the coaching space, I think you almost have to have the Inspirer Believer Archetype to do that with authenticity, and with the kind of value and experience that clients really benefit from. So you know, living out who you are.
Jane McKay 31:42
And it really is something that has, you know, Felix said to me are you famous Mum?. I’m like, well, I guess, to the people that I know on Instagram, and one of the things that actually has come out from this experiment of 100 posts – 86 – is, and I was never, I actually when I started that, I never thought I was gonna hit 100. But it was a really nice goal to have. And it also showed people that it’s okay to fail. Because I put it out publicly. And so often we put things out publicly, if we don’t get them we’re like, Oh, my God, I’m a failure.
Shannon Dunn 32:23
Yeah, and how can I admit that I didn’t get what I said.
Jane McKay 32:26
And I did a live on Friday, and I went “I failed”. But so much has come out of that. So in terms of being Inspirer Believer, and it’s all coming back to me now there’s a song about that. And I also quote song lyrics a lot, one of my quicks. Didn’t realize I did that. … is it’s a lot. It feels like a responsibility. But at the same time, it is also my legacy. And I get really, if you watch my live on Friday, I’m really passionate about this. I’m releasing a program super low cost people like, why aren’t you doing the 10K, the 20K program, you could do that, you can work with people who are really high end…You know who I’m here to..Yeah, I could, which is fine. But that’s not my vibe, because I mean, I’m happy to do that. But right now, I know so many people are back where I was in 2009, sitting alone in their offices, or at their desks, at their kitchen table, going I just don’t know what I need to do to succeed. Yeah, I’m gonna be a failure, I’m gonna have to go back to my real job.
Jane McKay 33:16
And then, as you mentioned earlier, often very simple things we can do. That can be just me giving them permission to show up as themselves and working through their messaging with them. To go, you know, what? show up as you. There are people out there for you. But unless you get visible, no one’s ever gonna buy from you. And I feel there are so many little businesses out there, especially women, especially in rural Australia, which is where I’m at. Who I started in this town, literally population 800 with an ADSL connection. If I can start a business with a terrible website – wasn’t that terrible, but you know, the olden days – and just get out there like, literally on a blog. Now we have social media, we didn’t even have social media back then. If I can do it, I want to show you that you can do it. But I’m here to help you get there. You don’t have to do stuff alone. There’s people like Shannon, there’s people like me, we’re not all going you’ve got to pay me 20K to work with me for six months. You can if you want. But I’m here for the little ones.
Shannon Dunn 34:53
I hear where you’re at. There’s so many people in the coaching and consulting space focusing on high end clients and teaching people to get high end clients like they’re the only people out there because if they’re high end, they’ve got money. People in different situations in their business earlier on, in a time where they’ve had to take, like you mentioned your client earlier through illness or some other reason, taken time out, have made a choice to change business, change tact about where they’re going,. They are in a different space, doesn’t mean that they have no money, it doesn’t mean they don’t want support, that they’re not going to invest. But sometimes the investment in the dynamic of the relationship supporting them just looks different. But they still are out there. Like you said, you and I were at that stage, we’ve been there different times over, where we just wanted something that was simple, that was easy to engage with that was an investment that didn’t make us feel like we had to go and get out a second mortgage. Right?
Jane McKay 35:49
And this whole guilt marketing of if you won’t go out and get a credit card to spend the $20,000 to work with me, you don’t value yourself. Can we just call that out right now? Fear based marketing just makes me want to vomit. I will tap into the fears, but I will not guilt you into. Like I understand, like, I won’t to tap into your fears, but I understand and empathize the fears is very different than trying to activate from those fears.
Shannon Dunn 36:18
Incredibly different. And there is plenty of marketing strategy and tactic taught out there. Anyone listening will have seen it and felt it because I think for me, it was very much a felt response. And usually it’s what I put in the bucket of repulsion marketing. It’s the stuff that makes me lean back and kind of almost have an allergic reaction. As opposed to stuff where I lean in and like, I’m curious, I’m like, What is this? Who is this? What am I hearing here? I need to know more? That’s the kind of marketing that you and I are really focus on supporting our clients to understand how to create and to create for themselves, or if they’re going to outsource it, to know what’s required, so they can outsource to the right person or the right company or team to do it for them in line with their messaging and their brand and what they want to achieve. And their values.
Jane McKay 37:09
Something I talk about all the time.
Shannon Dunn 37:10
We do indeed. Such a beautiful way. Now. I’ve asked every one of our guests to share something along the lines of you if I was reaching out to someone that knows you really well, and asked them what one of your superpowers would be what would they say? Do you remember what you shared? And most people don’t, but that’s okay.
Jane McKay 37:31
I think I probably would share unrelenting positivity and optimism.
Shannon Dunn 37:37
Yeah, so you did you put “eternal optimist”. So yeah, very close, which is also traits of the Inspirer Believer Archetype. That Archetype is the potentialist. We have a gift for seeing the potential in others, and a significant desire for them to recognize it in themselves and to use it. To rise, to rise beyond whatever it is, their potential. So that’s where the optimistic stuff comes in for sure. What often also happens with the Inspirer Believer and I’m curious to know your relationship with this, is that when somebody’s not really interested in all of the optimism, in all of the positivity, and all of the potential we see in them, it can be really confronting and quite extreme description, but I often say it’s like a dagger to the heart, when someone’s kind of pushing away, you can see that they can do this and that could be this easy. And it could be fun and it could achieve everything they want. And they just look at you like you’ve gone a bit crazy. It’s gonna be like it’s a big rejection. And that can really challenge that natural, innate optimism that comes with being an Inspirer Believer, to the point that sometimes we do need to take a step back and re-energize ourselves because its the Archetype of energy. So has that happened with you? Like, have you done that whole potential thing, and been really cheering someone and they just kind of like pushing it away.
Jane McKay 37:53
I’m not sure it’s happened to me recently. Honestly, my husband is like that. We’re very opposite in that, and he was having a bit of a moment the other day, and he’s like, I’ve got this, I’ve got this problem and blah, blah, blah. And I’m like, you can do this. Just pick the next intentional action and do that one thing, because from doing the action comes the clarity and it also gives you that positive feedback and input that your brain needs to go, “It’s safe. You can do this hard thing. It’s safe, it’s safe. It’s safe” because our brains always going scary. Don’t do that. I might die.
Shannon Dunn 39:44
Our brain is wired to respond like that to keep us safe. But I think they’re our own internal definitions of safety sometimes can be a little bit skewed.
Jane McKay 39:53
Yeah. And that’s what our brain is designed to do. But when I have clients who go I just can’t do this. I just can’t. I go, you know what, okay, do the easy thing. Go and find some quick wins, go and do some things that will give you that little hit that you go. “Okay, I can do this”. I had a client who came to me a little while ago. And she was aiming to launch and she had done nothing. She was aiming to launch in a month, no six weeks, and she’d done nothing. Like it didn’t exist, her brand did not exist, she had a logo, but she’d done nothing. And I was like, so okay, this is what you’re going to do. And this is what you’re going to do today, just this, just do those three things. That’s it, just make it super simple on yourself. Because often we get, we go into overwhelm, because we look at the big picture. And oh my God, there’s so much to do.
Jane McKay 40:45
And that’s what I’ve been doing recently, I’ve been designing my program. And I said to Angus, every time I sit down to do it, I just go into this place of overwhelm, because there’s so much work to do. And I’m like, Okay, no just, you know what needs to be done. Just do that little thing, just like do the slides, design the slides, then you’ll feel you made progress, do the things that make you feel like you’ve made progress. It’s progress regardless.
Shannon Dunn 41:07
That’s it right? As long as I think we’re moving in a forward trajectory, the amount that we accomplish, the speed is not the thing to focus on, right. You know, I often use the phrase, there’s no predefined speed to success, like your pathway to success and mine are going to be different. They’re driven by so many influences and factors, and how long it takes to get there is so much often the focus. Do we dare talk about quantum leaping? And like the obsession in the coaching, particularly business coaching space about fast tracking success?
Jane McKay 41:49
Shortcutting. Fast tracking.
Shannon Dunn 41:53
The time it takes. None of us know what that time is going to be. And yet there is such an obsession with it being a certain amount of time.
And before we came on air, we were talking about the program that I’m designing, you said, is this we were talking about last January? And I’m like, yes it was. But if I’d done it, then it wouldn’t be what it is now. And in that time, in that 18 months, I’ve undergone a personal revolution, but a real liberation of what it means to be me and what I get to share as me and what my clients find valuable, The runs on the board in terms of coaching are astronomically different. And the depth of understanding of my clients are astronomically different to 18 months ago, you know, I really went hard on, I decided that, okay, I’m gonna get off the tools, and I’m gonna go into coaching. And that was a really big change for me, because it was relying solely on my brain and not outputs, which is a really big shift for a lot of people in business. And, you know, I still do the occasional website build or branding project, because it’s fun. And I still like doing that stuff. But it’s pretty unusual these days, and to go all in on coaching, and owning that I can achieve those results for my clients was a big shift for me. But as we said, before we came online, on air – God i’m old – is fast tracking isn’t always the best way.
Shannon Dunn 43:32
No, but what is it anyway? There’s no predefined speed to achieve anything. And I think the more we let go of that myth, the better we’re all going to be.
Jane McKay 43:47
It’ll happen when it happens in its own time. And if you do it too fast… so the last time I did this program was five years ago, a program. And I followed the advice of a guru who said, build it as you do it. And I nearly had a nervous breakdown. I burnt out actually, at the end of that year, because I pushed myself so hard to do it. It was awful. It was horrible. And so those sorts of hacks, if they don’t work with you, and your personality, and your beliefs and your identity. Don’t do them. This is your official permission, just don’t do them.
Shannon Dunn 44:28
I know. I find it so interesting how people will share their failures. So yeah, to use that word. I’m not such a subscriber to failure because the Mentor Teacher Archetype in me is always like there’s a lesson in everything.
Shannon Dunn 44:43
So often, the messaging out there in various forms of marketing is around the foolproof, the fail proof, the “you do this that I did, you will get the same is all in the same time or faster”. No, because you’re a completely different, unique individual. And even, like, if I look at profiling women, yeah, you and I could have exactly the same Archetypes. But we are not the same person, we are influenced by different environments, our cultural influences, our family dynamics, our financial, our socio economic, our education. So the way our Archetypes are expressed at the core will be very similar. But there may be say, you and I have the same four Archetypes, you may have one that for some reason, and because of all those influences is more dominant than what my dominant one is. So, again, we show up in the world, we engage with the world, we respond to the world differently. But there’s no one out there.. there’ll be a tiny percentage of people who follow those foolproof, fail proof things and could get the same similar or better result. But it’s a tiny percentage, it’s minute.
Jane McKay 45:58
So don’t feel like a failure, because you’ve signed up for one of those courses. And it hasn’t worked for you. Because so many people don’t complete, feel flat, nothing’s ever gonna work. Because they’ve been taught to squash themselves into this very specific method. And I talk about, hearts and minds marketing formula, but that’s about working within your own personality, and how you operate in your business and how you want to show up. Like one of the first questions I ever asked clients is, who do you want to work with? And what do you want to do with them? And they’re like, but these people told me I should. Oh, no, no, no, no good words. “Should” no get rid of that. What do you want to do? And they’re like, Oh, no one’s ever asked me that before. And I’m like, yeah. Because you’re not in business to create a job, you’re in business to feel fulfilled. And that comes down to your desires and what you want to do. Thats how I operate. Simple.
Shannon Dunn 47:06
Okay, so as you are a listener of She Leads She Thrives I know that you know that with every one of our guest episodes, I get to a point where I ask every one of you a set of questions that are the same, so we’re at that point now. So I’d love to know, Jane, what role does leadership play in your life in business?
Jane McKay 47:28
For me, I don’t necessarily see myself as a leader. I see myself as a collaborator and co-creator with my clients, I can lead them to places, but they then implement themselves. But I’m very happy to be their champion, be their cheerleader. And if someone asked me to step up and lead something, I’ll do it. But would I call myself a leader? I don’t know if I identify with that.
Shannon Dunn 47:57
Yeah, it’s an interesting word. And I know that my previous thoughts about leadership were very much focused on that kind of what you described there – an external expression. And then in all of my obsession with human behavior, and the psychology of who we are, I came to recognize the self leadership part, which is around the, how we actually talk about what’s a common phrase in our language is lead my life, but do you really lead my business? But do you really? Like how do you lead yourself? Because so often the external focus, or the focus around leadership is all on leading people and often at scale, like large kind of groups of people and they are your followers. And that’s amplified by the language in social media.
Jane McKay 48:45
And that’s intentional that language. What’s interesting is now you phrase it like that. And you question it is, um, Chris Duncan has a not a mantra, but he calls him lenses, which I am the predominant creator of my life. And that is internal leadership. I rely on myself to create my life. Yeah. Yeah, I suppose. I am very much have the mindset that I have the capacity and the ability to create anything I want in my life.
Shannon Dunn 49:26
There you go. That is you owning your potential to lead your life on your terms. Yeah. I love it. So next question. I’d love to know your answer to is, how do you know you’re thriving?
Jane McKay 49:39
Oh, I’m a very, like, energetic person. So I talked about August being really messy or energetically, Usually, I am just as an optimist, I can pull myself out of any situation. I know that I’m gonna be you know, like if I’m having a down day today, I’m gonna have a good day tomorrow. August was all down days – shocking. But that didn’t come across on my social media.
Shannon Dunn 50:01
It didn’t at all. That was the month that you set yourself the task to do the 100 pieces of content. You got 86% on your grade.
Jane McKay 50:09
My A. How do I know when I’m thriving?
Jane McKay 50:14
Calmness is really important to me. So that was like that was one of the key things of August was I felt really anxious. I address the different things in my life that I know leads to me feeling happy and joyful and abundant in my life, which is I meditate, I move. I derive a hell of a lot of energy from my business and being in my business. Which is a strange thing for a lot of people’s. Working – yeah, that’s my happy place.
Shannon Dunn 50:53
Its so an Inspirer Believer thing. Because if we’ve created a business, that is a reflection of us doing what we love, then we are inspired by that. So that’s why because we are motivated, we’re energized, we feel good in that space.
So when my energy is good, like today, I’m like, boom, I’m on fire. And that’s like a hangover from yesterday where I had this absolute killer call with a client and she’s like, Oh, my God, you’ve just changed my life. Yeah, my kids are chill, my relationship is chill. I’m moving enough and meditating. That’s a really key important business activity for me. I just feel happy. Yeah, it’s not complicated. Simple.
Shannon Dunn 51:39
And it’s a whole other episode, to be honest. But you know, there’s so many aspects of human nature where we overcomplicate so much, even down to thriving. You’ve probably heard me say this, I say it regularly on the podcast, I 100% believe that everyone has a birthright to thrive. What that is going to look like is going to be different for every one of us. And that is the part that excites me. That we have different definitions of thriving, and that those will also evolve during our physical lifetime. And there’s also infinite ways to achieve that, to experience what that means. So yeah, that definitely part of my exciting space. So I’ve got a couple more questions that ask you, but before we do that. Where do people connect with you? So where can we find you online? And we’ll make sure these are all in the show notes.
Jane McKay 52:29
Mostly, I live on Instagram, because it’s, I just love it. Its’ my happy place.
Jane McKay 52:36
Shannon Dunn 52:50
You are on TikTok?
Jane McKay 52:52
I am on TikTok. I’m not very good at remembering because you can’t schedule TikToks. No, I don’t I’m not very good at remembering. Well, you don’t create 100 pieces of short form video and then not… I’m all about getting maximizing return on investment for your content creation efforts. I’m on LinkedIn a bit, but yeah, it’s not really my vibe.
Shannon Dunn 53:11
I know. Another conversation, another time about TikTok. It’s not been a place that I have been called to spend time. And I’m like, you know what, as I would suggest to my clients, when they’re like, where should I be on social media? Where do you feel the happiest? Where feels the easiest? Go there.
Jane McKay 53:28
And where does it make you feel bad when you’re on it?
Shannon Dunn 53:32
And the learning the whole TikTok thing. Not hard to learn. I know necessarily. But I don’t need to complicate my life with another social media platform to spend time on.
Jane McKay 53:44
And it is a time suck.
Shannon Dunn 53:46
I have heard that from a lot of people. No, don’t need to go there.
Jane McKay 53:51
I’m fine on Instagram. I’m very happy there.
Shannon Dunn 53:55
So what’s kind of a key piece of wisdom that you’d like to leave with the listeners today? We’ve got ambitious wise souls tuning in. They’re like you and I, they’re motivated, they want to make an impact. They want to leave some kind of a legacy. They want to be recognized for who they were in the world, not just kind of what they created and what they did. What’s a piece of wisdom around what we talked about and what you love to share? What would you say?
Jane McKay 54:20
Well, this is sort of everything that I believe in, wrapped up in one handy mantra. “The more me I am, the wealthier I become”. And it’s not just wealth in terms of financial but it’s energy, how you feel fulfilled in your business. Marketing gets to be easy. I’m all about feeling aligned and intentional with marketing. I talk about it all the time and fun. Yeah, and as soon as you unlock this, okay, I’ve got my brand voice that feels really aligned to who I am. I’ve got my offers created that feel really good to sell. And then you know your messaging around that. That’s your you wrapped up into that. And you go out and sell that. That feels incredible and easy and lucrative and fun. So the more me you are, the more wealthier you become.
Shannon Dunn 55:17
Very cool. A profound piece of wisdom to share. I love it. So listeners, as I say, every time we have a guest, if you have been interested in anything that Jane shared, please go and follow her. Go to Instagram first because you’ll get to see all those short form content that she’s been sharing, all the reels she does. And what did you say earlier that you’ve recognized how many different expressions you have on your face? And you do. I love it. You’ve got such a unique way of sharing stuff. And it’s always feels fun and playful.
Jane McKay 55:50
Geeky, totally geeky vibe.
Shannon Dunn 55:53
But in a fun, playful non-geeky way, like. So, as I said, you know I love you, we’ve connected. And, you know, we know we again, like a lot of my guests, and I knew a long time, haven’t met you in person yet.
Jane McKay 56:06
Yet. Give it time.
Shannon Dunn 56:10
Big hugs when we do. And, again, we’ll geek out on all kinds of things when we actually are in person. But to see someone who’s inspiring in what they’re doing. You’re an ideal example of that for me in terms of bringing lightness to marketing, because it can feel very heavy for a lot of people, very overwhelming, very technical, very strategy oriented, and those things are still there. But as you say, the geekiness has a playfulness at the same time, which is very cool.
Shannon Dunn 56:39
So listeners, go and follow Jane and connect with all of that. And thank you for listening in. And Jane, thank you for being here. And like I said, we finally got the times aligned and we could catch up and record this. I always trust that the timing is going to happen when it’s meant to. Because Jane, for those of you that will have no idea because I’m only sharing this for the first time, Jane and I know, she was in the first group of people I reached out to to be guests on the podcast and you had lots of stuff going on and here we are nearly a year later. Now this was obviously the ideal time, right?
Jane McKay 57:13
Perfect. Trust the timing. Thank you so much for having me on Shannon. Worth the wait.
Shannon Dunn 57:19
Yes, definitely. And again, of course, lots of fun. So thank you again. Thank you listeners. Go and follow Jane. Reach out to either of us. Let us know what you got out of today’s conversation. I know that I love receiving messages from anyone who’s listened. But make sure you tell us which which episode you’re listening to and what it was that really stood out for you. I think it makes such a difference when you can get that feedback from people about you know what’s really made a difference and take action on stuff. Yeah, I’m a big believer in don’t just listen and feel really inspired. Do something with that inspiration. So wherever you are in the world remember you were born to thrive and have a fantastic day.
Thanks for tuning into today’s episode. You are so valued and appreciated.
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